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 Project Ouroboros

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Ido

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PostSubject: Project Ouroboros   Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:41 pm

From the Ristaccia booklet, unsure of who translated it:
Who created the universe?
Is there someone who created the universe?
Not those again.
You still ask those foolish questions to me?
All the things had existed all along from the beginning, and will continue to exist till the end of time. No creation, no extermination.
Who invented the numbers?
No.
They had existed,from the very beginning. We just discovered them and gave them names.
It's just meaningless to talk about it.
We humans always want to know the origin, the reason, and the meaning of everything. No matter whether there is or not.
And what's the result?
The world is just an illusion of reality.
It's all dust. The dust storm of numbers.
The colorful world in our eyes is just a model which had been exaggeratedly interpreted.
You are just an image formed by dust, which looks like you.
Not just you, but we all. Just like an anagram, or a quantum byte.
Time to wake up from your dream, man.
We are almost there, to become immortal.

A.D.2572
By Lorentz Auenmuller (the sponsor of "Project Ouroboros")

So what is Project Ouroboros? Is it possibly trying to achieve immortality? Auenmuller after all is saying "we are almost there" Perhaps through evolution, as evolution seems to be mentioned a lot in the A.D. writings. And Malchut on these forums reminded me that the Ouroboros is a symbol of immortality (also, I wonder why Agiona's symbol is the Ouroboros...). I'm thinking the creation of the flying ship has something to do with this project, which is perhaps why there is a song called "Ark Ouroboros". Also, Ark Ouroboros' japanese title (永遠の方舟) means Ark of Eternity, which is interesting...
Anyone have any ideas about this?
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lemishie

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PostSubject: Re: Project Ouroboros   Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:13 pm

Mmm, while I'm not good with science and actual biology theories, I guess the keys here are "immortality" and evolution?
Ourobous could also be a symbol mean "an eternal cycle" which may be a little bit different with immortality. With immortality, nothing may change and stay the same. An eternal cycle has a set of different stages going on. Basically there's a beginning and end, then the whole thing starts all over again.
Now evolution, there's usually a beginning and an end. Different stages of changes to adapt the current situation(s). But once there's an end, that's usually the final result.
So Evolution =/= Immortality.

So let's say that they're trying to achieve "immortality" by recreating the cycle of "life" again. As in the life alllllll the way from the beginning of time when the Earth was anew. Perhaps the current Earth is doomed to die during that time and that's it. And I suppose for the purpose of this project is to find a way where a planet that dies can somehow starts up once more and let the cycle continue? And what better way to test this is on a planet like Aria Te'Laria? A new fresh planet that shares similarity of their own and by recreating events that similar to theirs, that they can find a way to achieve this goal?

So I guess the goal is to make somehow evolution can connect to immortality, a never-ending cycle. I guess it is possible since evolution is mainly to adapt the environment but I guess it's not an idea most would like since it means to start from square one.

Or perhaps they're trying to achieve immortality for the world to "stay the same". Which is literally almost impossible. Since evolution comes in once a tiny bit of change in the environment and species are made. Even if L'erisia or Joah didn't come to invade the planet, Aria Te'Laria probably would have evolved on its own. They just happen to speed the process at impressive rate within 2 thousand years?

Sorry, if I don't make sense. I'm just throwing things around. >////<iiii
We need some fans who are brilliant science prophets, please!
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Sigma
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PostSubject: Re: Project Ouroboros   Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:50 am

I love biology and evolution is one of the things I am very interested in!
Evolution in itself is change though, a subtle change over time, and while there
really isn't a 'end' to it besides total extinction. (Or if your a TTGL fan, the anti-spirals winning.)

And I have always thought of immortality as 'staying the same' , though the Ristaccia doesn't seem to want things to stay the same often times it acts as a catalysis for change. Though we don't really know how Joah and the Ristaccia are connected or the purpose of the latter. I really can't wait to find out, or atleast get more information about this area of the story.

Also another thing that was pointed out in the bemanistyle forums was that L'erisia's name seemed similar to Eris the goddess of chaos. I'm not sure if that was Zektbach's intention or not, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Project Ouroboros   Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:48 am

I personally see the idea of immortality in two different ways.

1: Becoming frozen in time.
2: Being rendered incapable of a mortal death.

Now, these ideas may seem similar at first, and it is possible for both to co-exist, they are very different. The former, as Sigma said, is basically a complete stop. There can be no growth, whether it be physical or emotional, resulting in a complete dead-end in an evolutionary line. To me, this seems like the exact opposite of whomever started, and whomever currently runs Project Ouroboros. Whereas the latter idea would seem to appeal to them on a broader scale. Being unable to die by any means would make the possibilities virtually limitless for whomever completes the project. Also, where in the former everything would become more limited by the inability to grow past whatever point in time they became immortalized in, in the latter, the capability for physical and emotional growth has basically been increased ten-fold by the sheer longevity that their immortality would bring them.

In reference to the name Ouroboros. It is known that the symbol of the Ouroboros is a snake wrapped in a circle and biting its own tail. This very image captures the idea of immortality in and of itself. A circle has no end, and through time, the beginning is blurred as you continue to go round and round. A continuous cycle that has no end. The snake also captures the image of immortality. Like most reptiles, the snake is able to shed its old skin for a new one. While it isn't immortality as has been described, it shows a cycle of rebirth. As the old skin decays and withers, a new one is grown to take its place.

Whew, that was a lengthy reply xDD I think Ido's rambles have begun to affect me ;P Anyways, this post should fill my quota until i become less flustered~ Till then, have fun with the theories~~
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Ido

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PostSubject: Re: Project Ouroboros   Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:07 pm

Wow, this topic is getting excellent responses, it's making me think about what it means to be immortal, and what exactly the project is trying to achieve...

Oh, lemishie, I think you might be on to something with what you said about a dying Earth, it reminded me of something I attempted to translate, two things that Timothy Bygott wrote, especially the first one (If anyone can make any corrections, please do! My Japanese is still not very good, and here I am trying to translate stuff we know almost nothing about xD)

長きに渡りこの天使の囁きを、信じ、
信念にし、理念にし、国家にし、伝統にし、争い
操り人形のように振り返らず自らを追求し、
発展させ、この星の王者として君臨した哀れな者達。
彼らの結末は、たった1つの個体群であるのに
自ら意図的に人口調節を行わない限り
生存がおぼつかないほどに彼らに溢れている世界、
そして彼らの廃棄物で醜く汚れてしまった世界であった。
彼らとは言うまでも無く、我々人類である――――。
A.D.2423年 進化論理学者 ティモシー・バイゴット
Over a long time, believe this angel’s whispers, in faith, in ideals, in country, in tradition, strife like a puppet without looking back, search for one’s self; advance, the pitiful people who reigned as that star’s king. Although their end was merely one population, since they didn’t personally intentionally carry out population control,(Unless they deliberately carried out population control??) survival is uncertain because the overflowing world they are in, and the world were their waste is dirtying it. In regards to them, needless to say, we are humanity.
A.D. 2423 Researcher of Evolutionary Logic- Timothy Bygott

It sounds here like Earth is indeed in trouble due to overpopulation... Though the first part confuses me, when I hear angel, I immediately think L'erisia, what does it all mean?


かつて人類黎明期に進化の過程で、自然に構築されていった
生き残る上で重要な一つの基本的で柔軟な神経回路があった。
それは時が経ち誤認識と誤作動を起すことによって思わぬ副産物を生み出した。
副産物はやがて人類を眩惑させたまま
それ自体が命を吹き込まれたように進化していったのだ。
その効果により傀儡された多くの設計者達により
多岐に渡り樹形を描いて進化と淘汰を繰り返したそのミームは
異なる樹形に位置する者同士を『罪』という名の下に対立させ
多くの血塗られた歴史を作り上げていったのだ。
私がそれを父と共に完全に駆逐してから数十年が経つ。
今や呪縛の螺旋を持つ者は皆無であり、我々はさらなる高みへと進んだのだ。
奴は最早この小さな箱の中のデータとしてしか存在しないのだ。
A.D.2424年 進化論理学者 ティモシー・バイゴット
Once, at the dawn of humanity, in the course of evolution, there was naturally built important for survival one fundamental flexible biological neural circuit. That is over time due to misrecognition and malfunction that awakened, unexpected byproducts were produced. The byproduct soon dazzled humanity, this itself in order to be brought to life evolved. Due to that effect, (acted as?) puppets because of many designers spanned many divergences, sketched shape of a tree evolution and natural selection was repeated, that meme placed a different tree form fellow humans under the name of “sin” caused confrontation, made up a history where much blood was spilled.

I, with father after this was completely destroyed (after we completely destroyed this,??) several decades have passed. Now the person with the curses’ spiral is nothing, we went to further heights and advanced. That person no longer exists only as data inside this small box.
A.D. 2424 Researcher of Evolutionary Logic- Timothy Bygott

More stuff about evolution here. And what is this about him and his father destroying something? His father must be Augustine Bygott I would think, who is the guy who said "Enough of it. It's time to put an end to this.We need no more heroes. Transcendental being is not necessary at all.If we human want to become immortal, the elite genes must first be sealed off." I'm getting the feeling that this could be related... and the thing about a person no longer existing as just data...perhaps it means L'erisia? Because she is data, right?? hmm.... gotta think about all this...

Yup, it's true, I really do ramble xD Though this is mostly just fail translation~
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Nox Catorce

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PostSubject: Re: Project Ouroboros   Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:04 am

About the text of Lorentz Auenmuller, for me the affirmative that everything has always existed and will always exist, with an example by the numbers, shows something that Tomosuke Funaki probably had contact in his biology studies: the internalist vision of nature, present in science and helped a little by psychology and philosophy. According to the internalist scientists, there is a logic behind the natural phenomena, and the goal of the scientist is to reach or discover the nature's truth by reproducing and observing passively what is already given to world.
That gains a reinforce in psychology because in this science field there's a theory that we don't experience the real, what means that our senses don't capture reality itself, more or less like Auenmuller says in the text. An example: if you look at a chair, you are not seeing the chair, but a possibility of the chair. If you change your point of view, then you see another possibility of this chair. Of course many philosophers in past and present walk in the same line of thinking, and many natural sciences' researches and teaching programs in schools and universities part from this vision, consciously or not, as well as scientists and students. Tomosuke must know the internalist theory, or maybe even believe it.
I studied that in the discipline History of Science in the past semester of my History graduation, and I can't help but think in all that when Auenmuller says that, in other words, his society experienced an exaggeratedly interpreted illusion because humanity has undone the eternal nature of things by tracing origins and ends. And when it's said somewhere that humanity can't reach immortality, when Joah (re)creates L'erisia and restarts the world, it seems like to say that internalism fails.

It's interesting when Timothy Bygott talks about data in a small box in the ending of the second excerpt of text that Ido brought to us, because one of Joah's memos mentions a small hole in a matchbox in the road to Zeta, saying "Our answer is there".
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