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 Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT

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Matin Catorce

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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:48 pm

Shamsir is not immortal, but she was 16 or so in her chapter? So by chapter 3 she is in her thirties.

If you read the tomosuke commentary note in the epilogue section I put in chapter discussion and the nature of world before Aria Te Laria formed, after the defeat of L'erisia it is basically end of Aria Te Laria.

Before aria te laria, world has come to perfect stillness as everyone has become some sort of data and the element of meme is deleted. Joah who finds the perfect stillness uncomfortable unleash L'erisia the embodiment of meme and thus world is restarted from beginning again.
In commentary note as L'erisia is defeated it is said everything flashed out and Tomosuke even hinted, is getting rid meme is actually a right thing to begin with?.
Meme also bring chaos but at the same time it brings change, evolution and culture. So that is what I said by end of Aria Te Laria as everything is reseted back to how it was before, world of stillness.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:48 pm

Shamshir went to search for Colada when she was 15. At the time of her OVA, Shamshir is 19. At the furthest time of the Ristaccia book timeline, when Hannes' Sanctuary is contructed, Shamshir is 38.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:26 pm

nadyXD wrote:
Hannes' Sanctuary

Hannes' Sanctuary?
I'm curious as to what this is...
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:48 am

I think Hannes's sanctuary, Meggido is only been mentioned in the timeline so far. No explanation as of yet on how and details about this.
Though I haven't touch her chapter in guidebook yet, so maybe it will say something about this Meggido sanctuary of hers
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:06 pm

Isn't Mount Meggido an actual place somewhere in Israel where Armageddon was prophesied to happen? Just throwing that out there because the fact that Hannes' sanctuary is apparently named MEGGIDO seems significant. 

All right, so Aria Te'Laria DOES come to an end of sorts after L'erisia is destroyed. But looking at Tomosuke's commentary.....

Quote :

And so The Epic of Zektbach has come to the end. If to add the image of the last scene, girls like Matin, Shamsir and Hannes appear and wearing contemporary clothes, and suddenly I notice something…
The story doesn’t come to an end. The image and sad memories shared by the girls that resemblance Matin and others. And so they take action―(?)



....... Doesn't it sound like immediately afterwards we go back in time to three girls who suddenly learn what happened, and decide to prevent it?

I dunno', my interpretation of that is that there are three girls who are basically previous lives/alternate universe or timeline versions of Matin, Shamshir, and Hannes, who get a sudden rush of memories from the Matin, Shamshir, and Hannes we know (Presumably at the moment Aria Te'Laria ends), realize this is what COULD happen, and decide to take action and prevent the whole mess from happening in their universe/timeline. Or at least, that's the impression I get.

So, uh, it looks like a "Well the world ended and everyone probably died but hey let's go back in time and see if we can prevent these shenanigans!" ending. 

.... But thinking it over, it seems the solution was probably to not condense the memes into L'erisia in the first place. It's like dealing with bees: Handling one bee on its own is difficult, but it can be done. A whole swarm of them? Run for your life. That, and thinking an unchanging world was a good thing (No, it's not good, because inevitably someone will get bored and stuff will happen that will cause more trouble than it's worth).

.... I haven't the slightest clue what I'm talking about though, so eh.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:29 pm

Maybe? Because basically he said something about contemporary clothes and about if to add image to the last scene? He is basically pulling the type of 'I leave the detail up to your imagination' ending and probably will not actually canonly determine what exactt he meant with that paragragh.
It could work both way to me. Either things go back to before aria te laria and the girls 'data' have these memories. Or alternate universe somewhere somehow in a world like us not the 'data' world, these characters are reborn.
But if they are reborn in AU to prevent what happens in Aria te laria it doesnt make sense? Like okay so that paralel universe is where everyone is data, get meme then kill it and things go back to beginning. Like why is that their business to mess up other paralel universe  fate when their own universe is basically like us has its own 'meme' or problem to deal with?
So if it is AU, I am more thinking that they are reborn in world like ours now, and armed with memories they live their life with knowledge about meme. Maybe so they can prevent the project Ourobos happening to their AU seeing how it leads to a perfect stillness?

I think it is not about how many L'erisia or if they shouldnt put L'erisia out?
Tomosuke is trying to invoke thought about the double edged sword fact about meme.  At one point it brings conflict, wars and chaos, but without it no evolution, culture or tradition. Before L'erisia is unleashed by becoming data, human race achieved perfect state of peace, at te same time nothing changes, nothing ends. Joah prefer to have 'meme' perfectly aware the chaos it will bring and even if it means end of his life or rather he yearns for an end.

Though at this point I guess I am happy just to take whatever the ending, reset or AU since his commentary indicate the fusion is cancelled out lol
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:13 pm

Honestly all I want is a HAPPY ending. Dangit just when I thought that I'd found a song series where most of the characters actually LIVE....!

That's what I meant - an alternate timeline or universe. It's kinda like Davesprite's origins in Homestuck (Forgive me for using Homestuck as a basis of comparison): Timeline 1 occurs (In this case, the Zektbach timeline). Timeline 1 leads to a bad outcome (In this case, the apocalypse). Matin, Hannes, and Shamshir have their memories from Timeline 1 sent back to past or alternate versions of themselves in Timeline 2, which is a separate timeline. The AU versions of the girls gain those memories and the knowledge of what could happen, and work to prevent it, thereby either A. canceling out Timeline 1 since it never happened in Timeline 2 or B. Not affecting Timeline 1 in any way since it's a separate timeline from Timeline 2.

In any case, it would lead to AU!Matin, Hannes, and Shamshir trying to prevent the events that lead to the Epic from happening, leading to either A. a stable time loop if they're on the same timeline as the Epic, or B. possible success if they are in a different timeline or universe.

No, I didn't mean that, I meant that L'erisia, as a memeplex, is like an entire swarm of bees: By trying to keep the memes under control but putting them all in L'erisia, they only increased their power because now they're all in one place at one time. .... It's hard to explain.

Honestly, I just want the part about the AU Matin, Hannes, and Shamshir to be CANON so there's at least a CHANCE of there being a happy ending.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:26 pm

I don't think the problem is about memeplex all in one place or not. It is more is meme there or not. L'erisia and ristaccia is a mere symbolism of its existence to make a point. If meme is not there it is the project Ourobos, if meme is there, world evolute again thus Aria Te Laria.
That's all. And if AU characters want to prevent it is only project Ourobos really. Memeplex is already part of our life, once it is taken out, they have witnessed or know the result, world before Aria Te Laria aka result of project Ourobos. L'erisia as meme is more like an excuse to be able to 'battle the meme out' in some kind of form just like A'Milia is representing nature.
I think that is the 'moral' of the story? To purge all meme and achieve perfect peace but nothing is happening and even time or death are not there, or to live with meme like our world even with all it is bad side effects?
I think Zektbach story mentality is to invoke thought at the end, the type of 'we are saving the world but at the end is what we consider right is actually absolute right?'
At first we thought l'erisia is just a form of ultimate power that has to be deleted because it only create Chaos. But turned out it is meme, aside the destruction where it stands out the most it is actually what grows the world to what it is now.

To be honest I don't mind either way lol. I have seen a much tragic ending. Canon or not we can just take it since Tomosuke dropped the hint there anyway Wink (more like my excuse to doodle more Gakuen Zektbach fan arts lmao)
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:27 pm

No no no, what I'm trying to get at is basically what TV Tropes dubs "conservation of ninjutsu" : The more spread out something is, the weaker it is, while the more condensed together it is, the stronger it is. Hence the swarm of bees comparison: A handful of bees spread out over a very wide area can be dealt with easily, whereas a whole swarm that's all in one place is something you do NOT want to mess with.

What I'm saying is that had the various memeplexes that make up L'erisia been spread out over a large area rather than all in one place as L'erisia, they would have been easier to deal with. The memes spread around all over the world were bad enough on their own; squished all together as L'erisia strengthens them immensely and creates a recipe for disaster (Hence why the Ristaccia shards lead to devastation - they're basically huge clumps of crystallized memes that have roughly a similar effect to the One Ring from "The Lord of the Rings"). Meme or no, the world would probably have been able to deal with it if the memes were spread out rather than clumped together (If 1 meme has a certain level of strength, a group of memes would be x times that amount, increasing the strength, and so on).

...... What I'm getting at basically is that the more spread out the memes are, the weaker their effect, whereas the more they're clumped together, the stronger they are, and therefor the more chaos they wreck when you let them run loose.

Yeah, I guess we might as well take that little tidbit Tomosuke and assume it's probably canon until contradictory stuff comes up.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:43 am

Ah yeah, I get what you mean. That's true, if it is bot concentrated then it will be just like our world.
I think L'erisia and Ristaccia being there are more of the 'decoy' in my opinion. Like everyone been led to believe that every single problem or disaster are Ristaccia fault while it is true, some of them are because of the meme that already exist in everyone gene. This is getting exposed or hinted more in clash between Yamaji and Kagachi, and in one of Hannes's narrative of memento mori. Because the destructive power of ristaccia is so overwhelming people focus on beating that, which turned out cancelling out the world itself.
Basically if the meme is spread out, in meme case, the more you can't get rid of it? Because they are implanted in everyone mind/gene hence it need project Ourobos. Even L'erisia can be defeated only bec there is Malchut/A'milia. I guess what I mean is the more stand out it is, the more they shift the blame to that one source. To make it worse/better since this one source is the 'origin' so once dealing with the origin of it they can get rid of other memes at once.

Which leads me to questioning though. Since the fusioned Noxmatin and Lien are transcendental being and able to see the 'truth of the world' maybe they do know that defeating L'erisia is cancelling out the world itself. And still they choose that because otherwise it is path of chaos. It is sounding more of the win-win situation that Joah set for himself lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:32 am

I was thinking more along the lines of the meme being so concentrated into L'erisia and the Ristaccia that their presence makes things WORSE. The meme is spread everywhere, yeah, but you could say it's the same thing in our world, and for the most part we've learned to deal with it. Aria te'Laria, however, has things worse because you have the meme's influence increased by who knows how much when you're near the Ristaccia shards or L'erisia.

Essentially, it's the meme's fault, but L'erisia and the Ristaccia just make it worse.

I don't really know about Lien, since he's, you know, dead by the time L'erisia is defeated, but Noxnmatin (I'm just going to called Nox and Matin post-fusion dnace "Noxnmatin" from now on).... Yeah, you have a point there.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:25 pm

Yeah that's what I meant with 'decoy'. Joah set L'erisia to make sure it is stand out where the cause of chaos is from as oppose if there is no l'erisia or ristaccia. In essence to mislead both ppl of Aria te laria and us (well we also didnt know about L'erisia = meme until like now or until he shoot the song 'meme') and so they sort of digging their own grave. I mean either way they are doomed.
Yup the effect is worse but for te better part of it, 'easier' to get rid of since it is given form and all in one place? No one but A'Milia has any mean to beat meme (even project Ourobos can only do it bec they manage to convert human entirely into data), so i guess more like making things easier for A'Milia? Lol
Though if it is spread out, like in our world, no one will point a blame to meme and just 'live with it' like the case of Yamaji and Kagachi. 

Ah actually the book addresses post fusion Nox and Matin as 'Noxmatin', no joke. Talk about being creative huh lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:05 pm

Correction: Actually sorry, I just double check the timeline again, since Lien becomes transcendental being to his death/the birth of Nox and Matin, is only 4 months apart. From the skimp reading of Lien's part in guidebook, because the moment Lien is dead is also the moment the twins born, the transcendental genes are inherited to twins upon the death of Lien and the image in Ristaccia video is actually to depict this. Not about Lien making a twin to inherit his genes.
So the twins are born from Catorce household but they inherit Lien's genes.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:55 pm

So Nox and Matin got special trancendental being genes

by pure chance

simply by being born at the right time?

........ Dang do they have awesome luck. 

Well, the issue with Aria te'Laria is that technically it already IS spread out... But parts of the meme are condensed into L'erisia and the Ristaccia, which amplifies the meme's effects and make it even WORSE when they're present.

Eh, considering how we have racism and conflict in our world too the situation with the Yamaji and Kagachi isn't THAT odd. Remember: We've dealt with all sorts of nasty stuff over the past couple thousand years, and we're still here. By "live with it" I meant they'd still deal with horrible conflicts, but it would be tolerable, and more or less the same as what our world deals with. 

Yeah, "Noxmatin" is a bit of a dumb name when you think of it. Eh, it's okay, though "Noxnmatin" sounds a bit better (I got the idea when I remembered Sam and Eric/Samneric from "Lord of the Flies" - Nox and Matin, NoxandMatin, NoxanMatin, Noxnmatin!). It flows a lot better when you say it.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:00 am

Ah no, what I meant was the same as yours. If the meme was spread out ONLY without L'erisia and Ristaccia. Sure they have conflicts and all like our world. But like you said, when I said 'live with it' they will still continue on.
Hence why I suspect Joah is intentionally putting an 'obvious target' in which also a trigger to reset or end the world. If it is like our world, the blame of war, racism and all are shifted all over the places and basically we are sort of that is just the way human nature is. But when there is an obvious target that amplified the chaos and effect of the meme, when they start to think to 'correct' or save the world, their attention straight away directed to the obvious target. If Joah just want to get the world out from perfect stillness, he could just spread the meme without condensing it into lerisia or ristaccia. Either he wasn't able to spread it out evenly, being just releasing meme who was once deleted from world, or he just want to see more destruction caused by it and the ironically the 'end' that will follow with the annihilation of L'erisia.

Yeah though looking at the images order in the PV I think Tomosuke changed his mind. Bec the images in the PV the 'twin creation' image comes first before his death. Though it could be he anticipated his death, arrange that upon his death the genes will be inherited to 'twins' (any twins?) <<< just one of my theory.

Honestly Ristaccia PV can no longer be trusted. He changed so many things and wriggle his way through.
- with Nox and Matin fusioned together, I question the Nox x Hannes thing. I mean it is still possible, but if that happens that mean the fusion will happens after a long while since end of BJ drama CD.
- Nox cutting his hair: not happening. Said to be just symbolism of his 'despair'
- Nox hugged by Hannes thing: said to be refernce to Hannes feel nox existence is calming her. Which is like thy met for brief moment in Hannes drama Cd, and instead it is nox that calms Hannes, so it should be Nox hugging Hannes while turning his back from Matin?
- image showing ristaccia outfit Matin kneels before ristaccia outfit Nox. Um after the conflict they are saved by A'milia from ristaccia influence and reconcile. Unless they somehow 'fight' or some epic plot happening between end of drama cd where Sasha is going away again (Adhuc said to her if you are in need of our help again just fly the pigeon messenger again) until the fusion then well..
- image of Matin summoning Trisagion from ristaccia on chest plate: I am pretty sure no longer valid lol.

But oh well at least he cleared the whole twins inheriting the transcendental being thing lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:12 pm

Quote :
Honestly Ristaccia PV can no longer be trusted. He changed so many things and wriggle his way through. 
- with Nox and Matin fusioned together, I question the Nox x Hannes thing. I mean it is still possible, but if that happens that mean the fusion will happens after a long while since end of BJ drama CD. 
- Nox cutting his hair: not happening. Said to be just symbolism of his 'despair'
- Nox hugged by Hannes thing: said to be refernce to Hannes feel nox existence is calming her. Which is like thy met for brief moment in Hannes drama Cd, and instead it is nox that calms Hannes, so it should be Nox hugging Hannes while turning his back from Matin? 
- image showing ristaccia outfit Matin kneels before ristaccia outfit Nox. Um after the conflict they are saved by A'milia from ristaccia influence and reconcile. Unless they somehow 'fight' or some epic plot happening between end of drama cd where Sasha is going away again (Adhuc said to her if you are in need of our help again just fly the pigeon messenger again) until the fusion then well..
- image of Matin summoning Trisagion from ristaccia on chest plate: I am pretty sure no longer valid lol. 
Awwww...... And that was my favorite PV.....
Oh well.....
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PostSubject: Re: Guide book discussion: obviously SPOILERS ALERT   Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:56 am

Matin Catorce wrote:
I think Hannes's sanctuary, Meggido is only been mentioned in the timeline so far. No explanation as of yet on how and details about this.
Though I haven't touch her chapter in guidebook yet, so maybe it will say something about this Meggido sanctuary of hers

Well, after going through all the text on Chapter 4, I couldn't find anything linked to Hannes' Sanctuary.
Damn.... I really want to know what it is.... This has got my curiosity peaked....
However, I have this real curiosity on page 85....
The one titled 「大樹トゥーリーに住む星の民」.

I might just transcribe it and have a friend translate it. If I can't have a friend translate it,
I'll try my best to get a brief idea of what it says....
If things turn out really bad.... then I might request one of you... ONLY IF my translation is really bad....
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