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| Meme - new song | |
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+5nadyXD L'erisia lemishie Ido Matin Catorce 9 posters | |
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Ido
Posts : 106 Join date : 2012-06-06 Age : 30 Location : Majin no Sato
| Subject: Re: Meme - new song Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:04 am | |
| Haha, new zektbach updates are the best! I hope there is some more info released about meme...I've grown really fond of the song Also, today I checked out a book about memetics from the library! It's such an important underlying concept in zektbach, and it's really interesting~ so I thought I'd look into it more | |
| | | Sigma Admin
Posts : 41 Join date : 2012-06-06 Age : 33 Location : Nowhere interesting
| Subject: Re: Meme - new song Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:10 pm | |
| Oh gosh this is very awesome (maybe we will get more Sigma action soon!!). I've know the etymology of the word meme for a while but I never thought to apply it to Zektbach (even though it really makes since considering Sigma a 'memeplex' and the evolution being a theme in Zektbach and memes themselves evolve!). Just quoting from a etymology website. - Quote :
- meme (n.)
1976, introduced by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene," coined by him from Greek sources, e.g. mimeisthai "to imitate" (see mime), and intended to echo gene.
We need a name for the new replicator, a noun that conveys the idea of a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation. 'Mimeme' comes from a suitable Greek root, but I want a monosyllable that sounds a bit like 'gene'. I hope my classicist friends will forgive me if I abbreviate mimeme to meme. If it is any consolation, it could alternatively be thought of as being related to 'memory', or to the French word même. It should be pronounced to rhyme with 'cream'. [Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene," 1976] | |
| | | L'erisia
Posts : 95 Join date : 2012-06-09 Age : 28 Location : Where ever a Ristaccia may be~
| Subject: Re: Meme - new song Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:24 am | |
| - Sigma wrote:
- Oh gosh this is very awesome (maybe we will get more Sigma action soon!!).
I've know the etymology of the word meme for a while but I never thought to apply it to Zektbach (even though it really makes since considering Sigma a 'memeplex' and the evolution being a theme in Zektbach and memes themselves evolve!).
Just quoting from a etymology website.
- Quote :
- meme (n.)
1976, introduced by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene," coined by him from Greek sources, e.g. mimeisthai "to imitate" (see mime), and intended to echo gene.
We need a name for the new replicator, a noun that conveys the idea of a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation. 'Mimeme' comes from a suitable Greek root, but I want a monosyllable that sounds a bit like 'gene'. I hope my classicist friends will forgive me if I abbreviate mimeme to meme. If it is any consolation, it could alternatively be thought of as being related to 'memory', or to the French word même. It should be pronounced to rhyme with 'cream'. [Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene," 1976] Oh my goodness, this makes so much sense! Considering that I think I read somewhere in the old Benami Forums that Zetkbach has some background in Biology. While The Epic of Zektbach's theme is quite debatable, I think a good one could be a classic Technology vs. Nature. And since Meme has to do with evolving, maybe the 'world' is evolving into that so called technology due to L'erisia being accociated with technology and even more so with the Ristaccia. Excuse my babbling. |D | |
| | | Ido
Posts : 106 Join date : 2012-06-06 Age : 30 Location : Majin no Sato
| Subject: Re: Meme - new song Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:10 am | |
| Haha, reading this book ( The Meme Machine by Susan Blackmore, with a forward by Richard Dawkins, really interesting stuff! The whole idea of memes as a second replicator~) has caused me to notice memes all over the place L'erisia..the ristaccia.. certainly it has caused evolution... and L'erisia is the "embodiment of the ristaccia" and I wonder, is it both memetic as well as biological evolution? I'm thinking so.. particularly one of the memo-type things by Timothy Bygott is bothering me, the beginning says something like "Over a long time, believe this angel’s whispers, in faith, in ideals, in country, in tradition, strife like a puppet without looking back, search for one’s self; advance, the pitiful people who reigned as that star’s king. " Faith, ideals, country, tradition... these are memeplexes... and the only "angel" I know of is of course L'erisia... though this is still so confusing! Actually, both of the Timothy memos make reference to memes, I think I posted them somewhere else, I might go and check my translations as its been a while Also that one after Shamshir's story by Augustine, where he talks about morality is talking about memes as well. And memes are all over the place in Zektbach, but my favorite example is with the Yamajijin and Kagachijin... starting with Ame no Uzume's teachings of sin and impurity that quickly spread to her people the Yamajijin, and from these and thanks to that evil lady Hare no Itoyo, we get the structure of society where the Kagachijin are controlled by the Yamajijin, which only strengthens over time... Wait I never posted that here, not sure where to... uh, is here fine then?? Or should I move it elsewhere? It was a difficult one for me, so its probably not the best >_< - Spoiler:
紀元前800年頃、エジーク大陸の北方に聳えるアリア・テ・ラリアで 最も高い山ミフシ山が大噴火を起こした。 山神人――ヤマジジンと呼ばれる民族の発生は、ここから始まったと言われている。 それよりも遡ること約200年。 エジーク大陸には西方のガルキア大陸よりヒュミナ種の一部の者達が到達していた。 彼らはガルキア大陸西端のフィヨルド地帯に住んでいた者達であったと言われている。 エジーク大陸到達当初、彼らはアマテリの森からユナバル平原にかけて居を かまえていたようで アマテリの森には彼らが生活していたと見られる痕跡が地中の火山灰の層の下からいくつも 発掘されている。
Around BC 800, the highest mountain rising in the north of Aria Te’laria on the Eijeek continent, Mt.Mifushi, had a large eruption. It is said that the origin of those called the Yamajijin people began from here. Apart from that as well, it can be traced back about 200 years. From the western continent Garukia, some of the Humina arrived at the continent of Eijeek. They have been said to have been the people who lived at Garukia continent’s western edge fjord area. At first when they reached the Eijeek continent, it seems they settled from Amateri Forest through Junabaru plain. They had lived at Amateri Forest and traces can be seen, from below layers of volcanic ash in the ground, many have been unearthed.
そのうちに彼らは、北方に流れるものと南方に流れるものに分かれた。 そしてミフシ山の大噴火により多くの者が犠牲になり、噴火の災害により南北の者達は完全に分断された。
Eventually, they were divided into those flowing to the north, and those flowing to the south. Thus, due to Mt.Mifushi’s large eruption, many people became victims, and due to the disaster of the eruption, the people of the north and south were completely divided.
ミフシ山の大噴火から300年余り経った時、北方の者達の中に指導者が現れた。 アメノウズメ――後に書かれたマシノワ神話ではクニツヒメミコと記され、神として 崇められている。 彼女は自然の声を聴くことが出来ると言われ、 噴火を起こしたミフシ山の化身である「オミフシサマ」と 意志疎通――巫(かんなぎ)を行っていた。マシノワにおける巫女の原型である。 At the time around 300 years after Mt.Mifushi’s large eruption, among the northern people, leaders appeared. Ame no Uzume- in later written Masinowa’s mythology, written down as/remembered as Kunitsu Himemiko, has been worshipped as a god. She is said to be able to hear the voice of nature, has come to a mutual understanding with the one who caused the eruption, Mt.Mifushi’s incarnation “Omifushisama”- was a medium (Kannagi). Is the archetypal miko of Masinowa.
神話の中でオミフシサマとアメノウズメは神と人間という関係を越え、深い恋仲だったと 語られている。 ヤマジジンの長老は、大噴火が二度として起こらないのはそういった アメノウズメとオミフシサマの関係にあり、 ミフシ山の頂きで見られる美しい金属アポイタカラはオミフシサマがアメノウズメを想い 贈った物であると語る。
In mythology, Omifushisama and Ame no Uzume went beyond the relationship of God and human, it is told that it was deep love. Yamajijin elders tell, a large eruption does not happen again like that is Ame no Uzume and Omifushisama’s relationship, At the top of Mt.Mifushi, it is told the beautiful metal that can be seen, Apoitakara , is what Omifushisama is thought to have presented to Ame no Uzume.
北方の人々はアメノウズメに従い、ミフシ山周辺の山岳地帯周辺に居住するようになった。 山麓の土壌は豊かで作物が実りやすく、彼らはそこで農耕を行っていた。 アメノウズメは日常の様々な罪穢れの概念を人々に教えた。 不衛生なもの、醜怪なもの、死、害虫による人畜の損害など 社会通念上「まほしからずもの」を「ケガレ」とおき、決してオミフシサマの前に 晒してはならないと説いた。 「ケガレ」はアメノウズメが人々を束ねる為に行う儀式の意儀と 神秘性を高める為の契機であったものと考えられる。 この罪と穢れの概念はまたたく間に人々の生活に浸透した。 噴火などの自然現象への強い畏れ、閉鎖的な空間、アメノウズメの強い魅了性と高度な弁舌と儀式が、人々の心理や基本理念に強く影響を及ぼしていったと見られる。
The northern people followed Ame no Uzume, came to reside in the vicinity of Mt.Mifushi’s surrounding mountainous area. The soil at the foot of the mountain is rich, harvesting a crop was easy, they were farming there. Ame no Uzume taught the people the concept of various everyday sins and impurity. Unsanitary things, hideous things, death, loss of people and animals due to pests, and so forth. Since commonly accepted idea “mahoshikarazumono” is distant from “kegare”, preached that should never be exposed in front of Omifushisama. For the sake of Ame no Uzume governing the people, “kegare” was the meaning of a ritual carried out and was considered an opportunity to enhance the mystique. This concept of sin and impurity in a flash permeated into people’s lives. Strong fear towards natural phenomenon such as eruptions, enclosed space, Ame no Uzume’s powerful mesmerizing nature and sophisticated speech and rituals was found to strongly affect people’s psychology and fundamental principles.
アメノウズメは長く生きたと言われ、山の人々に絶大な影響を及ぼしたようだ。 死後は盛大に祀られていたようで、 ミフシ山付近に残る大きな社の跡からいかに崇拝されていたかが窺い知れる。 マシノワ各地に点在するクニヒメノヤシロは、後の時代にこの社からの分霊したものである。 そして、この偉大なる始祖巫女の血筋が代々山神の巫女となり、 長きに渡りマシノワの支配構造の頂点となっていくのである。
Ame no Uzume is said to have lived long, and seemed to have a tremendous impact on the mountain people. After her death, she seems to have been grandly enshrined, in the vicinity of Mt.Mifushi from the remains of the great shrine how worshipped able to be understood. Scattered throughout Masinowa, Kunihime no yashiro(shrine to Kunihime), in later times from this shrine, there are bunrei sprits. (division of a shrine's tutelary deity, in order to share it with another shrine; spirit divided in such a manner- see Shinto encylopedia) And thus, this great founding miko’s lineage for generations becomes the mountain god’s miko, Would for a long time become the top of the ruling structure of Masinowa.
アメノウズメの死後から250年程経った時、ヤマジジンの集落は突然の大凶作に見舞われた。 当時の巫女であるハレノイトヨはオミフシサマに神和ぎを行ったところ次のような神託を 受けたとされる。
After about 250 years had passed since Ame no Uzume’s death, a sudden serious famine/bad crop hit the Yamajijin settlement. The miko at that time, Hare no Itoyo performed as a medium to Omifushisama like the following oracles had received. (???)
――災厄の要因は「不浄なる者」の存在による。ケガレを清めずして生きる術なし――
-The calamity’s main cause was due to the existence of “people who become unclean”. Without purifying impurity, no way to live. -
この事により、ヤマジジン達は初めて自分達の社会範囲外の事象を意識することとなる。 彼らはハレノイトヨに従い、不浄なる者を求めて山を降りた。
Due to this, the Yamajijin for the first time would be conscious of events outside the range of their own society. They, in accordance with Hare no Itoyo, searched for the people who become unclean, descended the mountain.
しかし、この神託がハレノイトヨの一存で行われた演技だったという可能性がある。 というのは、人々が増え、集落が増え、 社会文化が発達するにつれてアメノウズメのケガレの教えが 徐々に人々の生活の中で不合理化し、巫女の儀式への負担などが問題化していた時代だから である。
However, there is a possibility that this oracle was acting at the discretion of Hare no Itoyo. That is to say because increasing number of people, increasing number of settlements, as there is social and cultural development, then Ame no Uzume’s teachings of impurity gradually in people’s lives became irrational, burden to the Miko’s ritual and so forth, becoming a problem era.
ハレノイトヨは先見の明を持つ、聡明な者だったと伝えられている。 恐らく彼女はこれからは民族の理念を支える被支配者を組み込んだ社会構造が 必要であると考えていたのであろう。 まだ見ぬ不浄なる者を支配し、彼らを「まほしからずもの」に深く関わらせる事で ヤマジジンの日常生活から完全にケガレを分離させ、 支配構造を作る事により、より高い民族意識の社会を作ろうと考えたのだろう。 既に山を降りた場所に被支配者となり得る者達がいた事を、先に察知していたのかもしれない。
Hare no Itoyo had foresight, was said to have been a wise person. Likely she, after this, was thinking it was necessary to have a social structure that incorporates a ruled over people to support the nation’s principles. To rule the yet unseen people who become unclean, they were deeply concerned with “Mahoshikarazumono” (?) so the Yamajijin completely separated themselves from impurity in their everyday life, By creating a ruling structure, seems to have thought they were trying to build a society of higher national consciousness. May have earlier sensed that already at the place where they descended the mountain there were people who could be ruled over.
平野部に点在する集落を見つけたハレノイトヨとそれに付き従うヤマジジン達は、 集落にいた者が全員背中に蛇のようなアゼを持っているのを見て、これこそ「不浄なる者」達とした。 何も知らないこの集落の者達は突然襲ってくるヤマジジンに為す術も無く、 ただ従うしか生きる術はなかった。
Found settlements scattered throughout the plains, Hare no Itoyo and the Yamajijin who joined up with these saw that all the people in these settlements had a birthmark like a snake on their backs, this for sure was the “people who become unclean”. This community’s people who knew nothing were helpless to the Yamajijin who suddenly attacked, but there was no way to live but to obey.
この集落の者達が蛇神人――カガチジンである。 カガチジンとヤマジジンの力の差は、アポイタカラにあったようだ。 アポイタカラを早くから精錬し、強靭な武具を持っていたヤマジジンに対し、 カガチジンは非常に低い文明であった。 これは、居住地周辺の資源の豊富差もあるが、 何よりもカガチジンは古代戦争で滅びた南方ダリシアンの地の種族であるガデナに、 かつて大虐殺されており文化がなかなか発展せずにいたことが大きい。
This community’s people are snake-god people- the Kagachijin. The difference in power of the Kagachijin and Yamajijin seems to have been Apoitakara. Apoitakara was from early on refined, compared with the Yamajijin who possessed tough armor, the Kagachijin civilization was very low. This is, there is a wealth of resources around their residence as well but above all destroyed in the ancient war, by the southern Dalisian land’s race the Gadena, that in the past there had been genocide, culture was considerably without development, was a big thing.(???)
「不浄なる者」カガチジンを支配下に置いたヤマジジンは、 オミフシサマの目に入らない隔離した場所に彼らを住まわせ、ケガレを浄化させた。 この構造は時が経つにつれ、より強固なものとなっていく。
The “people who become unclean” Kagachijin put under the control of the Yamajijin dwelled in a segregated location that doesn’t enter the eye of Omifushisama, allowed to purify the impurity. This structure, over time, became stronger/more firm.
紀元前182年。アメノウズメの末裔のトヨノヒメミコを中心にした国家、神国マシノワが 建国される。 トヨノヒメミコは天神の子とされ国の家徴となる。 こうして、初代天神の子トヨノヒメミコから謎の死を遂げた第15代クヌエノヒメミコまで アメノウズメの血を引きし者を頂点にしたヤマジジンの国家が誕生したのであった。
BC 182. Country centered around Ame no Uzume’s decedent’s Toyo no Himemiko, Shinkoku Masinowa is founded. Toyo no Himemiko is considered Tenjin no Ko, becomes sign of country’s house. Thus, from the first Tenjin no Ko Toyo no Himemiko until the mysterious death that was carried out with the 15th, Kunue no Himemiko, people who descend from Ame no Uzume’s blood at the top Yamajijin country was formed.
Okay, ramble on memetics done now | |
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